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Andrew Sullivan and I - Impressions and Expressions of Ijon
July 30th, 2002
03:46 pm

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Andrew Sullivan and I
Andrew Sullivan is consistently providing me with excellent food for thought. ygurvitz helped discover him. He's apparently a fairly well-known intellectual in the US and the UK. Never heard his name mentioned in Israel, of course.

I consider myself a liberal. Often agreeing with Sullivan suggests that I may be conservative. Am I? Does subscribing to liberal ideas make one conservative today?

Current Mood: ponderous
Current Music: Jethro Tull - Bouree

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From:gaal
Date:July 30th, 2002 04:04 am (UTC)
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Your uses of "liberal" and "conservative" are in dire need of qualification. These tags have been worn thin.

Also, from his front page:
    THE REAL TADPOLE: In a case in Washington State, a woman gets prison time for a sexual relationship with a fourteen year-old boy. Both families are wrecked; and a young life is in jeopardy. I wonder whether Anthony Lane thinks this is the best a kid can get. Or if Mary Eberstadt even noticed.


I'm missing a hell of a lot of information, but I did read the linked article. What's his gripe against? The verdict? The (maximum) sentence? Very likely this is a comment that needs to be read in context of his other discussions. But on its own it's just inane.
From:nanowyatt
Date:July 30th, 2002 05:33 am (UTC)

Tadpole

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Are you familiar with the film Tadpole?
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From:gaal
Date:July 30th, 2002 06:24 am (UTC)

Re: Tadpole

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Nope! Thanks for the link. Can you fill me in on what he was refering to in the film?
From:nanowyatt
Date:July 30th, 2002 06:42 am (UTC)

Re: Tadpole

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I believe that Mr Sullivan has been pointing out what he thinks is the hypocrisy of people who think that older man/underage girl sexual pairs are morally and/or legally questionable (at the very least) while also finding dramatizations of older woman/underage boy sexual pairs amusing, or at least not scandalous. Tadpole is an instance of a movie treating this latter pairing as an object of amusement. Mr Sullivan would probably say "Imagine that the film had a younger woman and older man...what would be the media's reaction? Certainly not the universal approval that this film has received". His pointing to this news story would be to highlight that this kind of pairing is at least as serious as the man/girl pairing, and the differing reactions are somehow sexist/hypocritical.
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From:gaal
Date:July 30th, 2002 07:01 am (UTC)

Re: Tadpole

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Hey, thanks for the explanation! This no longer looks inane, at all.
From:nanowyatt
Date:July 30th, 2002 07:10 am (UTC)

Re: Tadpole

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You're very welcome.
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From:gaal
Date:July 30th, 2002 06:33 am (UTC)
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Also, are you sure you're feeling ponderous!?
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From:ijon
Date:July 30th, 2002 10:18 pm (UTC)

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Er, yeah... Ain't I? <cracking open m-w.com> Ah, here we go, ponce, pond, ponder, ponderous! Hmm. Ah!

Er, no, that's not quite what I meant. The English language is full of surprises...
From:(Anonymous)
Date:July 30th, 2002 07:00 am (UTC)
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From browsing his site that Sullivan's claim to fame (in addition to a good columnist) was being both Catholic and openly Gay. Both of these facts color him somewhat at odds to Traditional American Conservativism (tm).
Personally, I don't agree with most of his stuff I've read.
I recall really liking Meir Uziel's column in Maariv as a teen, until one day I read something he wrote (about Lebanon? the Peace Camp?) and said aloud "That's Not Funny!"
Wham. I suddenly realized he was a right-winger, and I couldn't enjoy reading him since.
So I switched to Yonatan Geffen...
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From:ijon
Date:July 30th, 2002 10:15 pm (UTC)
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Yes, Meir Uziel writes fairly well, but his angle is often plainly unfair (never mind that I think he is wrong, my point is that his writing is sometimes unfair).

As long as we're moosing, mind revealing your identity?

Oh, and it's Yehonatan Geffen.
From:(Anonymous)
Date:August 8th, 2002 12:26 pm (UTC)

Oh you paranoid moose...

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S'me (http://corky.net/dotan/log/).

And I insist that it is Yonatan Geffen, not Yehonatan. When you pass the paper around, you want to read "Ma katav Yonatan Geffen ha shavooa?", not "Haeem yesh leyedidi Yehonatan deevray koxma yotzei doffen?"

- Dotan
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From:ling_tso
Date:July 31st, 2002 12:55 am (UTC)

I must admit I'm rather mystified

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at the idea of a gay Catholic. Isn't that almost as strange as a female Catholic?
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From:ijon
Date:July 31st, 2002 01:27 am (UTC)

Re: I must admit I'm rather mystified

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Yeah, gay catholics are funky. I really liked the movie Priest; I thought it made the point very well.

Sullivan himself wrote a somewhat unconvincing article about the recent church sex scandals. It seems to me that you cannot honestly support human rights and the notion of liberty and the Catholic Church at the same time.
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From:ling_tso
Date:July 31st, 2002 03:45 pm (UTC)

Interesting article

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Though you drastically understated its unconvincingness. First of all, Sullivan seems viscerally compelled by the teachings of the Catholic church; whereas all that trinity and divinity mess just seems nonsensical to me. Even granting the idea that God sacrificed himself to himself to break a rule that he made himself, there's the problem of the church heirarchy. Why should we respect people who issue such harmful decrees about birth control and the status women? Their only conceivable motives are a) self-righteous sanctimony b) gross mental negligence and c) deliberate cruelty. Shouldn't we just join a protestant church with a basically Catholic view of the universe, but without the stodgy officials? I shall stop now, since I fear that I am (forgive the vulgar idiom) preaching to the choir.
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From:lukkke
Date:July 30th, 2002 09:37 am (UTC)

לא מכירה את דיעותיו של האיש...

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אבל אני מסכימה שבהחלט אדם ליברלי יכול להחשב לשמרני היום. מצד שני זו שמרנות (=ליברליות) לחשוב ששמרנות זה משהו שלילי.
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From:ygurvitz
Date:July 30th, 2002 07:50 pm (UTC)

Re: לא מכירה את דיעותיו של האיש...

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סאליבן הוא שמרן יוצא דופן. עד לא כל כך מזמן, רצוי להזכיר, שמרנים - אמריקאים, לפחות - תמכו בהפרדה בין שחורים ולבנים, וביטולה בוצע על אפם ועל חמתםץ שוויון הזדמנויות לנשים בעבודה, למשל, הושג כאשר סנאטור שמרני הציע - למצהלות אחיו - תיקון לחוק שוויון הזכויות בעבודה (שהיה מיועד לאסור אפליה על רקע גזעי) גם "אפליה על רקע מיני". הוא היה משוכנע שהסעיף הזה יפיל את הצעת החוק, שכן איש לא יתמוך בהצעה מגוחכת ונלעגת כל כך כמו שוויון הזדמנויות לנשים.

הוא טעה. אבל התנהגותו מעידה על השמרנות האמריקנית, כפי שהיתה לפני 35 שנים בלבד.

אני חושב שהבלבול נובע מכך שהמחנה שהיה ליברלי- מחנה השמאל - עסק בשנים האחרונות בעיקר בתורות פוסט מודרניסטיות (שהובילו לתקינות הפוליטית) ובאפליה מתקנת. השמרנים מסוגו של סאליבן (ואני חושב ששמרנים מהדור הישן עדיין שורצים במפלגה הרפובליקנית - לראיה, הימין הדתי, שמתנגד לשוויון מיני וולזכויות הומוסקסואלים) מוצאים את עצמם נסוגים אל עמדות ליברליות מהדור הישן.

מעניין.

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