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Insight by Night - Impressions and Expressions of Ijon — LiveJournal
December 29th, 2003
01:25 am

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Insight by Night

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From:raisinlike
Date:December 29th, 2003 03:40 am (UTC)
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אני מסכימה איתך לחלוטין, אם אדם רוצה משהו, שיגיד את זה בבירור. אני גם לא מוכנה יותר לבזבז זמן ואנרגיות במשחקים כאלה, וגם אני כמוך גולשת לאיזור הכעס והתוקפנות בתגובותיי לפעמים (כתוצאה של תסכול מכך שאני לא נותנת מענה לאדם שמולי וגם מכעס על זה שמשחקים איתי). אני חוזבת שהנכון הוא להמשיך בדרך שלך. השיפור צריך לבוא בעידון התגובה וסילוק גורמי האי נעימות ממנה, שכן רב האנשים לצערי מבלים חלק גדול מאד מזמנם במשחקים כאלה ואחרים ומורגלים בנסיונות חוזרים ונשנים של פענוח, כאילו זה היה קוד נימוס חברתי שמונע מאיתנו להגיד מה אנחנו באמת רוצים ו"מאלץ" אותנו להתחבא, להציק ולרמוז כאילו כל חברינו היו קוראי מחזבות מקצועיים
From:raisinlike
Date:December 29th, 2003 03:41 am (UTC)

..כמובן

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מחזבה=מחשבה
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From:unfilthy
Date:December 29th, 2003 04:45 am (UTC)
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Subtext has nothing to do with "playing games".
From:raisinlike
Date:December 29th, 2003 05:36 am (UTC)
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i think it does. when one says one thing and means another but chooses not to say so for whatever reason, expecting the other to understand and comply, that, in my book, qualifies as playing games.

i think it is important for people to say what they want, and i expect my friends to respect me enough to do so. why would i want people i love to do anything but be true to themselves?
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From:wildernesscat
Date:December 29th, 2003 05:39 am (UTC)
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Sometimes people cannot express their true emotions, either because they are unaware of them (on the conscious level), or because they feel too embarassed to put them into words. In either case, they are not playing a game.
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From:unfilthy
Date:December 29th, 2003 06:03 am (UTC)
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Right. Saying one thing while meaning another does qualify as playing games, or, more accurately, lying. However, that is not subtext.
Humans are emotionally complex beings, and often when they say something, they mean it, and more. Subtext is the "and more" part. It's not "instead of", as you seem to think.
Everyone uses shorthand, even when they happen to be aware of everything they're feeling at the time (which is not at all common). Language itself is built that way. If you think you say everything you think, feel or need at all times, you are gravely mistaken.

I could probably explain this further, but frankly, I don't feel like it right now.
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From:wildernesscat
Date:December 29th, 2003 05:37 am (UTC)

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Exactly! Games have nothing to do with it.
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From:mousa
Date:December 29th, 2003 06:05 am (UTC)
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I agree. I often can't put all my feelings and thoughts into words. I believe people *should*, and I am a great believer of "doogriness" myself, but some times you just don't know what is that you want. Talking to friends often helps crystalizing the thoughts and feelings and findind the problem, and then the solution.
From:raisinlike
Date:December 29th, 2003 06:20 am (UTC)
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are we talking about being human or about פול's here?

pulling a פול is indeed a game. saying "no, go ahead and eat without me, cause i have atleast 10 more minutes of work and i don't want you to starve" meaning "wait for me, i am starving and i don;t want to eat alone" is playing a game. wanting to call the woman you dated last night, which is by far the most wonderful one you have met in years, but thinking "nahh.. i don't want her to think i am too interested" is a game.

contemplating on what to do, discussing a probelm, getting your thoughts out there with someone to help sort things out, discovering in the middle of a fight you were wrong and changing course - all this is "being human" (so to speak)

these are two different things, and i have no interest in the first one. if you want me to wait - tell me, if you love me, tell me, if you think i am an asshole and want me to change something - tell me. if you don't want to say it, but rather leave me guessing with innuendoes i am not playing this game, i wasted too many years on this. it is a matter of respect IMO, both for myself and others.

did i make my point any clearer? it is hard to think straight while working.
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From:mousa
Date:December 30th, 2003 05:09 am (UTC)
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Oh, I totally agree with that. I just understood Ijon's entry a little differently.
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